Discussion:
sources of old music
(too old to reply)
Tom Harke
2004-04-08 22:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
I've got two ideas, but I haven't tried either:
1) go to public library
2) go to local bookstore's rare books section, ask really nicely to
xerox relevant bits

p.s. it's great to have a mailing list.
--
Tom Harke
Ph.D. Student
OGI School of Science & Engineering at OHSU
Hans Forbrich
2004-04-09 16:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Harke
Hi,
Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
1) go to public library
2) go to local bookstore's rare books section, ask really nicely to
xerox relevant bits
3) Ask on the list ... I have been collecting vocal scores and deliberately
concentrating on expired copyrights. I'd certainly be willing to make and
send copies.

/Hans
Ben Crowell
2004-04-09 18:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Harke
Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
1) go to public library
2) go to local bookstore's rare books section, ask really nicely to
xerox relevant bits
I'm also interested in hearing ideas about this from other people. What's
worked for me so far is:
- Go to a good university library, and do a search in the catalog where
you either sort by publication date or limit your results by
publication date.
- At a smaller library, look through the stacks for anything that's
just a reproduction of an old P.D. edition. A lot of these are
published by Dover.

Another possibility, if you're in academia, is to use interlibrary
loan.
Will Oram
2004-04-09 18:55:41 UTC
Permalink
University libraries are great sources. My uni (Case Western) has a
music library that has been around since c. 1900, so finding scores
from under 1910 is not uncommon. Old Eulenburg scores are easiest to
find, IMHO. The downside of a uni library is that if you don't have
checkout privileges, photocopying might not be a cheap/effective
option.

Another option is to eBay. Searching for 'Eulenburg' or its misspelling
'Eulenberg' turns up many options. There's always browsing the Sheet
Music category if you have nothing special in mind.

Best,
Will
Post by Ben Crowell
Post by Tom Harke
Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
1) go to public library
2) go to local bookstore's rare books section, ask really nicely to
xerox relevant bits
I'm also interested in hearing ideas about this from other people. What's
- Go to a good university library, and do a search in the catalog where
you either sort by publication date or limit your results by
publication date.
- At a smaller library, look through the stacks for anything that's
just a reproduction of an old P.D. edition. A lot of these are
published by Dover.
Another possibility, if you're in academia, is to use interlibrary
loan.
_______________________________________________
Mutopia-discuss mailing list
http://lists.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mutopia-
discuss
Will Oram
spamguy ^^AT^^ foxchange.com // william.oram ^^AT^^ cwru.edu // AIM
spamguy21
Hans Forbrich
2004-04-09 22:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Harke
Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
1) go to public library
2) go to local bookstore's rare books section, ask really nicely to
xerox relevant bits
[3) Ask on the list]

4) Look at CD Sheet Music (http://www.cdsheetmusic.com). All of their
material IS scans of Public Domain music (many, many publishers). And they
even include a document on the CD to say exactly that!!

What they have copyright is their logo on the first page of the music (and the
CDs themselves?) but NOT the music!

Nice thing is they respect the copyright laws for the different countries and
state, on their web site, which CDs can not be distributed in various
countries.

/Hans
Hans Forbrich
2004-04-09 22:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Forbrich
Post by Tom Harke
Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
1) go to public library
2) go to local bookstore's rare books section, ask really nicely to
xerox relevant bits
[3) Ask on the list]
4) Look at CD Sheet Music (http://www.cdsheetmusic.com). All of their
material IS scans of Public Domain music (many, many publishers). And they
even include a document on the CD to say exactly that!!
What they have copyright is their logo on the first page of the music (and
the CDs themselves?) but NOT the music!
If it helps - I have an email from them discussing this ... I asked if I could
typeset and/or transpose and they said, in no uncertain terms, YES!

/Hans
Tom Harke
2004-04-09 19:16:26 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, Hans Forbrich wrote:

] On Thursday 08 April 2004 16:22, Tom Harke wrote:
] > Hi,
] >
] > Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
] > I've got two ideas, but I haven't tried either:
] > 1) go to public library
] > 2) go to local bookstore's rare books section, ask really nicely to
] > xerox relevant bits
]
] 3) Ask on the list ... I have been collecting vocal scores and deliberately
] concentrating on expired copyrights. I'd certainly be willing to make and
] send copies.

Right now I'm specifically looking for Brahms' Hungarian Dance #5 (for
piano). I've done part, for personal use & to learn more lilypond,
from a xerox of dubious origin. It shouldn't be too tough to alter,
if any alterations are needed.

I've also done a couple of Joplin rags that are currently at Mutopia.

If time permits, I'd like to do more of each over the next year.
--
Tom Harke
Ph.D. Student
OGI School of Science & Engineering at OHSU
Hans Forbrich
2004-04-09 21:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Harke
Right now I'm specifically looking for Brahms' Hungarian Dance #5 (for
piano). I've done part, for personal use & to learn more lilypond,
from a xerox of dubious origin. It shouldn't be too tough to alter,
if any alterations are needed.
I've also done a couple of Joplin rags that are currently at Mutopia.
If time permits, I'd like to do more of each over the next year.
I don't think I can help in this case, although I'm still working on my
inventory. (Much of my PD inventory is from EBay - I just noticed one
copyrght 1912 & I've copied the link and some of the info for you at the
bottom.)

The only Piano work that classifies as PD in my inventory so far is

Schirmer's Library of Classical Music (copyright 1894)
Vol. 1 Ludwig v. Beethoven Sonatas for Pianoforte
containing Op. 2 #1,2,3; Op. 7; Op. 10 #1,2,3;
Op. 13; Op 14 #1,2; Op. 22; Op. 26; Op. 27 #1,2
Op. 28; Op 31 #1,2 (#3 is in Vol 2 - unavail)
Revised and fingered by Drs. Hans Buelow and
Sigmund Liebert
Translated & Forward by Dr. Theo Baker (c. 1903)

Being a classic singer, my library is heavily into vocals, with a lot of
Schirmer Opera piano-reductions from the 1890-1905 time. My wife may have
some in her piano library, which I'll inventory after I've done mine (likely
1-2 years from now).

/Hans
(Follows is the EBay info)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38105&item=3716347586&rd=1

... The book is entitled "The Most Popular Modern Piano Duets", but the
copyright is 1912! I guess the term "modern" is relative, right? Anyway -
what a fabulous old book that belonged to my grandmother many years ago. 15
pieces including Barcarolle, Witches' Dance, Humoreske by Dvorak, Hungarian
Dance by Brahms, Song of the Lark by Tschaikowsky.
Chris Sawer
2004-04-09 21:13:35 UTC
Permalink
In message <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404091206480.28983-***@larch.cse.ogi.edu>
Tom Harke wrote:

[...]
Post by Tom Harke
Right now I'm specifically looking for Brahms' Hungarian Dance #5 (for
piano). I've done part, for personal use & to learn more lilypond,
from a xerox of dubious origin. It shouldn't be too tough to alter,
if any alterations are needed.
Solo or piano duet? The original setting was for piano duet, and any editions
of these seem quite hard to find. I've an old edition of dances 6-10, but
I've been unable to verify the copyright even if I had the right one.

If it's piano solo you're after, though, I've got an edition of all
twenty-one dances, arranged by Brahms himself, which should be fine to copy.
They're hard to play, though! Let me know if you'd like me to scan it in.

Chris
--
Chris Sawer - ***@sawer.uklinux.net - Mutopia team leader
Free sheet music for all at Mutopia: http://www.MutopiaProject.org
Marcel Bollmann
2004-04-09 21:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Hello everyone!
Post by Tom Harke
Where do you all find editions of music whose copyright has expired?
1) go to public library
I think this one's always worth a try. Unfortunately, I'm usually looking
for the most obscure pieces, so I rarely find the sheet music that I'm
looking for ...

For example, I just started to enter a Glinka nocturne into LilyPond. I
found the sheet music on the 'net, but there are a lot of comments and
remarks scribbled on it, so I'd like to make my own version. The edition I
found on the 'net looks very much like it could be old enough to be in
public domain, but unfortunately, I don't see any way to prove it. I
couldn't find the piece anywhere in a library either, so I probably won't
be able to submit it to Mutopia when I'm finished. :(

Well, I hope that one day I'll finally create a LilyPond file which I can
actually submit -- the music I'm interested in is usually extremely rare
(and sheet music therefore hard to find) or still copyrighted for the next
20-50 years or so. :(

- Marcel
--
NEU : GMX Internet.FreeDSL
Ab sofort DSL-Tarif ohne Grundgebühr: http://www.gmx.net/info
Matthias Kilian
2004-04-09 22:31:24 UTC
Permalink
[...] The edition I
found on the 'net looks very much like it could be old enough to be in
public domain, but unfortunately, I don't see any way to prove it.
BTW: what, if the music *is* old enough, and a *newer* printed edition
doesn't mention any copyrights?

Or, if an edition claims too strict copyrights that obviously are wrong?

For example, I just bought the Bärenreiter Edition of BWV 1001-1006,
and they claim that reproductions of any kind are forbidden. That's of
course nonsense, since *playing* is also reproduction (using medium air
instead of paper).

And what about identical music from different Editors/Publishers? If
I have some Beethoven Sonata (which, as a piece of music, is clearly
public domain) from independend publishers, and both publishers use
identical *content* (but probably different fonts, layout, spacing...),
is that a strong enough indication that I can use that publications as
a source for a PD edition?

Ciao,
Kili
Ben Crowell
2004-04-10 01:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthias Kilian
BTW: what, if the music *is* old enough, and a *newer* printed edition
doesn't mention any copyrights?
Or, if an edition claims too strict copyrights that obviously are wrong?
Slightly OT, but here's a real-life example that happened to me. I've
self-published some free-information physics textbooks, and in one, I
used a photo of a centuries-old oil painting of Isaac Newton. At this
point, I don't even remember how I found it -- probably an image search
in google. Obviously the painting is public domain now, but here's an
e-mail I received this year:

Dear Sir,

We notice you have an image of Isaac Newton on your website www.lightandmatter.com/ , which is of a portrait in the
collection of the National Portrait Gallery,
+London (NPG 2881).

As we do not appear to have licensed a copy of this portrait for use on your website, we wondered whether you would
let us know the source from which you obtained the reproduction.

Although there may no longer be copyright in original portraits from this period, there is copyright in recently taken
photographs, or scans such as those that appear on our website. Unauthorised reproduction of such photographs or scans
may be an infringement of copyright law.

I look forward to hearing from you regarding this matter.

Yours sincerely,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernard Horrocks
Copyright Officer
National Portrait Gallery St Martin's Place London WC2H OHE

Even if they don't have a leg to stand on, they can make you lose sleep.
Best to stick with stuff that is really, truly, completely P.D., such as
the Dover books that are just photographed from the 19th century editions,
complete with gothic lettering. And of course you want to say in your
Mutopia file that the source is Bach-Gesellschaft, 1871, not Dover!
I'd avoid it like the plague if it looks like there has actually been
modern editorial work, e.g., the titles are in English, or there are
editorial notes about errors that have been corrected.
Marcel Bollmann
2004-04-11 00:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by Hans Forbrich
4) Look at CD Sheet Music (http://www.cdsheetmusic.com). All of their
material IS scans of Public Domain music (many, many publishers). And
they even include a document on the CD to say exactly that!!
What about <http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/>? They've got quite an
interesting collection, and they make the same claim for their sheet music scans.
They also claim a copyright of their own on their PDFs, however, so I don't
know if creating and distributing a LilyPond version based on their files would
be okay. :(

Another issue ... a few years ago, I stumbled upon a MIDI file of a piece
which I liked very much. I wanted to have the sheet music, but as it is
extremely hard to find, I decided to make my own sheet music based on that MIDI
file. (I think I did it in an old Finale version or Finale Notepad at that time.)
It certainly wouldn't be too much trouble for me to re-enter that piece in
LilyPond format. The music itself is no longer copyrighted, so theoretically,
if I wanted to submit the result to Mutopia, this should be perfectly
okay/legal, shouldn't it?

(If anyone's wondering: The piece in question is the "Ballad for Violin and
Piano" by Ciprian Porumbescu.)

- Marcel
--
NEU : GMX Internet.FreeDSL
Ab sofort DSL-Tarif ohne Grundgebühr: http://www.gmx.net/info
Tom Harke
2004-04-12 15:39:52 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004, Chris Sawer wrote:

] In message <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404091206480.28983-***@larch.cse.ogi.edu>
] Tom Harke wrote:
]
] [...]
]
] > Right now I'm specifically looking for Brahms' Hungarian Dance #5 (for
] > piano). I've done part, for personal use & to learn more lilypond,
] > from a xerox of dubious origin. It shouldn't be too tough to alter,
] > if any alterations are needed.
]
] Solo or piano duet? The original setting was for piano duet, and any editions
] of these seem quite hard to find. I've an old edition of dances 6-10, but
] I've been unable to verify the copyright even if I had the right one.
]
] If it's piano solo you're after, though, I've got an edition of all
] twenty-one dances, arranged by Brahms himself, which should be fine to copy.
] They're hard to play, though! Let me know if you'd like me to scan it in.

Sure! Dance #5 only. If I succeed in entering it I may request another.

What I have currently is a piano solo. I'd forgotten about the duet.
My source code is a fair bit more sensible than previous things I've
transcribed, so I think any necessary modifications will go smoothly.

Part of why I'm doing this one is to give a copy to a friend who's a
musician ... hard to play is not an issue <evil laugh>

Thanks!
--
Tom Harke
Ph.D. Student
OGI School of Science & Engineering at OHSU
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